Boudillion: Ray, with 5 books on the Andreasson affair,
you and your name have become inexorably linked with it. I find it
suggestive that in the end the same thread of buried contact memories may
have run a parallel course through your life as well. Are your and
Betty Andreasson Luca’s experiences linked at some deeper level beyond
coincidence? If so, what do you think its all about and where do
you think its all going?
Fowler: I don’t know. I do know that I was attracted to her
case not only because Dr. Hynek referred it but also because she is a Christian.
Initially I was interested in how a Christian would process an abduction
experience. Also, and importantly, it was my exposure to her childhood
contact and abduction experiences that once again triggered memories of
similar childhood experiences and my future exploration of them. Along
the way there have been a number of parallel coincidences including our
receiving the typical scoop marks during the same week and told by the
entities that we were going to do something important for mankind. Re the
latter, other than my books and investigation reports, I have not done
anything earthshaking for mankind.
Dan: Your research indicates that there is a definite thread
of contact that runs through families and spans generations. It s
also known that psychic ability is an inherited trait. Could this
be part of the reason contact runs within in families, and certain families
are chosen over others – or would you attribute it to something else?
I’d like to know your thoughts on this.
Ray: It is hard to say. There are many who never had psychic
abilities until they had a UFO experience. There are others that had psychic
abilities prior to a UFO experience. Perhaps the former had a UFO experience
but do not remember it. One thing is sure and that is for that or another
reason (perhaps genetic research) abduction experiences run in families.
Dan: You have stated that the Elders (the tall entities)
“retain a human shape or can transform themselves into beings of light”.
What do you think the true shape of their being is, and what do they really
Ray: I really don’t know. I have speculated that they and
the so-called Watchers are able to move from what we call physical to what
we call wave. Some quantum physicists are saying that matter at the subatomic
level appears as both particle and wave. It only becomes particle when
the mind observes it. Somehow, like Star Trek, they seem to be able to
be transformed from matter to wave or wave to matter (beam me up Scotty!).
It would appear that their wave existence exhibits itself as a ball of
light. I think that the Elders maybe are what we eventually are going to
be and exist where we are going to be. They look similar to us.
Dan: You state that the Watchers (the gray entities) are
bio-electric robots, and that according to their own words are really another
form of Homo Sapiens. This said, I can’t help but wonder if we humans
aren’t some form of bio-electric robot as well – perhaps one gone free-range?
What do you think of this idea? Also, what are the fundamental similarities
between us than them, and what are the differences?
Ray: I really do not know. It is possible. According to
what was told Betty, the Watchers are mature human fetuses that have been
programmed by the Elders to carry out specified tasks in our so-called
Dan: Betty Andreasson Luca reports in one of your books
that the gray Watcher entities told her they love the human race.
I find this at odds with the predominance of reports that reflect that
these beings are incapable of any emotions at all. Indeed, this is
often reported as one of the most frightening traits of the entities.
What are your views on this?
Ray: Perhaps love for them translates into concern for
our well being. Imagine that a military aircraft carrying germ warfare
canisters makes a crash landing on a remote island inhabited by primitive
people. Some of the canisters break open and there is a medical threat
to these people. Concurrent with a rescue, military medical personnel fly
to the island from an aircraft carrier. Can you imagine the fear on the
part of the natives when white-suited masked entities forcefully round
them up and force them to be vaccinated with steel needles. Some are flown
to the aircraft carrier’s hospital and are subjected to other instruments.
I’m sure that after it was all over the natives would look back in horror
at what had taken place. They would not realize our great humanitarian
concern for their health and the danger of their spreading the diseases
generated by the germ warfare canisters. As far as they were concerned,
a huge bird-like thing fell from the sky followed by devils or spirits
arriving in bird-like things that in turn captured them and stuck them
with needles, etc. before leaving. Perhaps this is analogous to what is
going on re the abduction phenomenon. Remember that the Watchers told Betty
that "mankind was going to become sterile" and that there seems to be a
symbiotic connection between them and us. Perhaps their survival depends
upon our survival. I will discuss this further in question 8.
Dan: Are we narrowing ourselves by conceptualizing UFOs
as simply physical objects? John Keel went so far as to speculate
that the UFO objects were actual beings themselves. What do
you think of this? What’s your opinion?
Ray: Most certainly. Even some radar/visual
sightings indicated that UFOs materialize and dematerialize. Radar might
pick up a hard return from a UFO seen at point A. Then, the UFO seems to
pop out of view and pop in view again at point B with no visual or radar-detected
flight path observed between A and B. Also, UFOs may not be constructed
of living tissue but might be a highly advanced representation of artificial
intelligence that is able change its function and shape and be operated
via the intelligent minds of its operators.
Dan: In The Andreasson Legacy, you referred to UFOs
as “technology wed to spirit” – maybe spirit is the technology?
If this is even partially true, how should we refocus our approach to UFOs
in general and investigations in specific?
Ray: In question 3 I indicated that matter at the subatomic
level may not exist as particle unless it is observed by mind. There are
reports that some persons have the ability to affect so-called physical
objects by their minds. In question 6 I speculated that UFOs may be operated
in this way. I have read reports that our government is experimenting with
this prospect in a very rudimentary way for fighter pilots. Betty was told
that their technology was wed to spirit. This is what may have been meant.
I do not know how this could cause us to refocus our approach to UFOs and
investigations other to surmise that our thoughts can be monitored by the
UFO entities and that it is possible that some of us who are investigating
are being monitored by what/who we are investigating as part of a study
or perhaps a conditioning process.
Dan: If the beings and objects are indeed para-physical,
what unseen world or dimension are they from, and how do we take this aspect
into account when conducting our investigations, Ray?
Ray: I point out in The Watchers II that some Near Death
Experiences and UFO abductions experiences would be hard to tell apart.
Dr. Kenneth Ring states that some persons that have had an NDE report being
in a craft in outer space and being confronted with similar entities to
the robed human-like Elders. Similar entities are reported in normal NDES
and in ancient and modern so-called religious experiences. This being the
case, one could speculate that UFOs and the entities that operate them
come from that same domain/dimension that persons having a NDE experience
enter and return from. In The Andreasson Legacy I speculate that human
beings are a larval form of the so-called Elders and we, like a herd of
cattle are being cared for and maintained until we die and enter the reality
in which they dwell. This might be analogous to dragonflies in the world
of air warning and operating upon their larval forms in a world of contaminated
water in order to secure their own survival. Probably a bit more complicated
than that but basically no larvae = no dragonflies.
Dan: Specifically, how do we test for the para-physical?
Do we need to develop new tools or new attitudes? I would appreciate
your advice in the matter.
Ray: I have not idea how to test for the paraphysical.
We are limited to measuring the size, shape, weight, speed and various
effects upon humans, animals, and environment of UFOs that manifest themselves
in a physical form. However, our attitude should be that of having an
open mind to cases that involve reported paraphysical phenomena.
Dan: Reading in the May 2002 issue of the national MUFON
UFO Journal, author and investigator Barry Downing states: “When
we are doing UFO and alien research, we are facing some kind of power.
A big power.” I’d like your comments on this statement.
Ray: Barry Downing equates "A big power" with the God of
the Judeo-Christian tradition.
Dan: There is an evolutionary trend over the course of
your books from a nuts and bolts perspective to a willingness to entertain
paranormal aspects of the phenomena. How did this come about?
Was there any one pivotal event that brought about this change of perspective?
Ray: At one time, I was a fundamentalist Christian but
since have expanded my theology. I had dismissed anything paranormal experienced
by myself or my family as being Satanic. In my early days as a UFO investigator,
I rejected any UFO report that contained any type of psychic phenomena.
I also felt that UFO witnesses who reported such were mentally unstable.
However, it became apparent that credible persons were reporting incredible
things that were similar to what my family, especially my father, had and
were experiencing. My mind and theology gradually broadened to accept the
paranormal aspects of the UFO phenomena. I might add that when I did this,
I began to experience such phenomena on a more regular basis. There was
one event which, although not pivotal that affected me greatly. During
the week that Betty and I both received the typical "scoop marks", I believe
that I saw myself in the future. I entered the half cellar one-day and
saw a ghostly figure with a white shirt and black dress pants come out
from behind the furnace and walk toward the cellar stairs. I could not
see the face and thought that I must be seeing a ghost. It was only later
that one day, getting ready for a wedding that I dressed in a white dress
shirt and black trousers and went behind the furnace to get something from
the freezer and took exactly the same path as the entity did that I suddenly
realized that I had seen myself. This same phenomenon has also happened
on another occasion but the two events took place only minutes apart. These
events plus others have made me think that time really does not exist and
that all that we have done is still occurring and what we are going to
do is already happening although what we do now might be altering it as
we move along experiencing what we call time in a sequenced manner. This
is perhaps why the Watchers told Betty that are time is "localized".
Dan: You are currently writing your 10th book. What
will this one be about? We would like to get an idea of where your
current investigations are taking you.
Ray: My last book is sort of a "tell-all" autobiography
of my investigations and experiences. Hopefully it is written in such a
way that it will help those who are going through abduction experiences
and assist researchers in understanding and investigating such experiences.
Testament: Anatomy of an Abductee]
Dan: What is the most important message or insight you’d
like to pass on after a lifetime of UFO research?
Ray: That UFOs, NDEs and so-called psychic phenomena are
individual expressions of an all encompassing metaphenomenon that is generated
from another reality into our world, which is but a shadowy reflection
of that other reality.
Dan: What single most valuable piece of advise would you
most like to pass on to new MUFON Field Investigators?
Ray: UFO investigators should to their utmost to be totally
objective and not reject out of hand the high strangeness aspects of the
UFO phenomenon that do not reflect the prejudices of one’s personal belief
Dan: Ray, I appreciate your taking the time for this interview
– its been an honor. Here is one last question: After almost
40 years studying and investigating the UFO phenomena, why do they still
Ray: Attempting to solve the UFO mystery has continued
to expand my concepts of reality especially after discovering that I have
been and continue to be part and parcel of the mystery itself. I love a
A final comment from Ray:
I'm afraid that most strictly nut and bolt oriented researchers will
reject much of what I said out of hand. I certainly would have done
so earlier in my life. Also, I would like to get any comments from
readers if possible. (Please see below for Ray's email address.)
General: Raymond E. Fowler was
born in Salem, Massachusetts and received a B.A. degree (magna cum laude)
from Gordon College of Liberal Arts. His career included a tour with the
USAF Security Service and twenty-five years with GTE Government Systems
as a Senior Planner for the Minuteman Intercontinental Missile Program.
Ray directs his own planetarium and observatory and teaches courses on
Astronomy and UFOs at North Shore Community College.
Credentials: Ray Fowler's contributions
to UFOlogy are respected by UFO researchers throughout the world. Reports
of his UFO investigations have been published in: Congressional Hearings
on UFOs, military publications, newspapers, magazines and professional
journals in the USA and abroad. Astronomer Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Chief Scientific
Consultant for the USAF UFO Projects called Raymond Fowler. "An outstanding
UFO investigator ... I know of no one who is more dedicated,
trustworthy or persevering." Ray has served as an early warning coordinator
for the USAF-contracted Colorado University UFO Study and as the Director
of Investigations for the International Mutual UFO Network [MUFON].
TV/Radio Appearances: Ray has been a guest
on hundreds of radio and TV shows in the U.S.A. since 1963 including: Dave
Garroway, Dick Cavett, Mike Douglas, Good Morning America, Unsolved Mysteries,
Sightings, and has been a consultant to TV UFO Documentaries and Time-Life
Author: Ray has had
11 books on UFOs published
in the USA between 1974 and 2004. Many of them have also been reprinted
in foreign languages. He is currently working on his lastest book on
Purchase books from